3.7 Lauren Markham: Unlearning Systems

In episode 7 of Season 3 of OpenPODpod we hear Lauren, Advanced Lived Experience Practitioner at CNWL, telling us how learning about Open Dialogue led her to peer working. Along the way we reminisce about chocolate factories, the first ever POD cohort, and Lauren’s experiences as a healthcare support worker-turned-peer. As we reflect, we look through different lenses to learn about the unique value of peer working in Open Dialogue – the P in the POD.

POD at Central and North West London NHS Foundation Trust

Fiona Eastmond | LinkedIn

Transcript

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Narrator 0:09

Welcome to season three of open POD pod. My name's Fiona and I'm an open dialogue practitioner, just beginning to develop some hours of practice. We'd really love it. If the things that we talk about in this podcast, Could sit alongside any learning that anyone's doing about open dialogue.

Fiona 0:25

would you like to introduce yourself?

Lauren 0:27

Yes. So hello. my name is Lauren Markham. I'm an advanced lived experience practitioner. and I work across Kensington and Chelsea, so I've got my own lived experience of mental health. and I've worked as a peer support worker previously, and I did open dialogue training quite a few years ago now. We're kind of approaching ten years, probably closer than I would like. yeah, I was on the first cohort, when I used to work for NELFT, which is North East London. Mm hmm. NHS Foundation Trust.

Fiona 1:02

that's how you got on the first cohort. where was the first cohort? what was being the first like?

Lauren 1:08

I didn't work as a any kind of peer support worker or a lived experience worker. I was working as a support worker in a community mental health team, as they were known back then, things have changed quite a lot since then. And I just remember getting this email about, you know, open dialogue and thinking about family and networks. And I thought actually, and no one knew at the time, actually, that I had my own kind of mental health. But I remember looking at it and going, Oh, if I had that when I was in services, that would, you know, be great. And I applied for it because you had to apply for it at the time. And Russell Razzaque was one of the consultant psychiatrists in the community mental health team that I worked for. So he was overseeing the whole training. And I thought, yeah, this sounds like my bag. And to my absolute surprise, I got a place on the course. And off we went up to Birmingham. One of the few things I remember about it was the fact that it was by the Cadbury factory.

Fiona 2:13

Wow.

Lauren 2:14

It was kind of four weeks, but the weeks were separated out. it was a residential time. I remember going up on the Sunday before and spending the Sunday in Cadbury factory, went to the curry mile, had a nice curry as you do,

Fiona 2:29

that sounds lovely. And so, you were a support worker at the time.

Lauren 2:34

I'd been a support worker before for private sector housing, but it was my first NHS role.

Fiona 2:44

So what brought you to support work?

Lauren 2:46

It was the fact that I had my own experiences, but that wasn't something at the time that I felt comfortable about sharing.

Fiona 2:54

Hmm.

Lauren 2:55

And yeah, so I'd had my own experiences and also my own experiences of caring for people.

Fiona 3:03

Hmm.

Lauren 3:04

well. I mean, I'd always been kind of interested in psychology and did the classic, you know, psychology at university. I had to leave after two years because I had a huge breakdown in my mental health, requiring kind of hospital admission and things like that. so I'd always had some kind of interest in it, but then, after that happened, I thought actually, you know, my interested in it? only grew

Fiona 3:31

Hmm.

Lauren 3:33

I did eventually finish my psychology degree. I did it via open university because that was just a chapter of my life that I thought, no, I need to close this. at the time, it was a way to also kind of get my foot into the door, in terms of working in mental health. So yeah, I went for this support worker role and that was also in the same place that I was living. So I was living and working in the same borough for a little while as well,

Fiona 4:00

Can you tell me a bit more about living and working in the same borough?

Lauren 4:04

Yeah, so it was great in terms of I knew what was around in terms of kind of third sector organizations and, you know, community centers and things like that. because it was a community team. So I needed to get from place to place quite easily. And I don't drive. So, you know, relying on public transport, but when you live, you know, in the same area, that's great, because you know, Which bus to get? It was fine, but then, you know, the problems came. When I become unwell, and no one knew that I had previous history of mental health problems and I Became unwell to the point where I needed home treatment team interventions I had psych liaison. There was talk of an admission at one point and I knew everyone, I knew some of the staff in Home Treatment Team, and someone actually came to assess me, realised it was me, and then went, oh I don't feel comfortable assessing this person because I know who they are, and there were people who were on the ward who I had supported. as a support worker. So there are lots of, question marks and, actually, we don't know what to do with Lauren because it's quite complicated. and that's one of the reasons, why I changed jobs and why I changed roles and why I came to CNWL. And the other reason, and the main reason, I guess, was I went from a support worker to a peer support worker role.

Fiona 5:42

So tell me a bit more about how. You went from support worker who had done open dialogue training to peer worker in CNWL to where you are now.

Lauren 5:55

So it was open dialogue training that introduced me to peer support. So I kind of had a bit of the opposite experience that some people might have experienced. On our second week of open dialogue training, we had peer support workers come to join us from a different trust. at the time, NELFT, only had one peer support worker in the whole trust and they weren't on the training at the time, they actually did the second cohort, I believe. But yeah, so I didn't really know a lot about peer support. It was never something that I was offered when I was in services. It wasn't really that well established because we know we're talking 10 plus years ago. So it's come a long way since then. I just remember I was, in all honesty, I was really jealous. There were this group of people that out in the open could just talk about their mental health. And that was fine, and it was accepted, and they were there because of their mental health, and it didn't matter. And I was really, really jealous, and I remember just sitting there, and initially, there was a bit of backlash. and I was sitting there going, who are these people that think I, that who think they can, you know, come in and talk about, you know. Their mental health. I'm one of them too. And I just remember going, this is not fair! This is really, really not fair. And I was angry initially. I was like, in all honesty, I was always a little bit angry and resentful if I'm being completely honest. I mean, well this is not right.

Fiona 7:39

Yeah.

Lauren 7:40

Not like, but then, you know, and I thought, you know, the initial, it was almost like, you know, you know, when you go through like the seven stages of grief, and then there's anger, and then eventually there's acceptance. And I was there going, this is amazing. And I would think, then my anger kind of shifted towards the NHS as a whole, maybe, and going, well, why don't we have those in NELFT? This makes total sense. and then obviously I become unwell and there was, you know, after the training and not because of the training

Fiona 8:15

Were those two things linked?

Lauren 8:16

No, it was a little while after the training and I think having the peer support workers as well Also made me realize That I maybe wasn't as far along in my recovery journey that I initially thought that I was And I think there was a realisation for me, because, part of, open dialogue is you have to be open and you almost have to be vulnerable to a certain point, and there's a lot of self reflection. And I remember going away after that second week, going, I need support, actually, I'm, I'm not, I'm not as well as I think I could be. And I did and I got, you know, more support and I got a very particular type of therapy which was incredibly helpful. But then it opened up a lot of vulnerability in me also, which is why I then kind of become unwell as well. But I see that as a positive now because I've gained a lot of knowledge and a lot of insight about myself and my illness and who I am as a person. through kind of going through that, that crisis period. And after becoming unwell at work, I thought, you know what, those peer support workers are actually really great and I'd love to do something like that. And the job came up, and I saw it and was like, yeah, this is something that I want to do. And I haven't looked back since about nine years later, still doing it.

Fiona 9:47

Nine years nearly the same as me.

Lauren 9:49

Yeah. Yeah.

Fiona 9:51

I think we came to CNWL at more or less the same time, didn't we?

Lauren 9:55

Yeah. We were on the train. We

Fiona 10:01

on the CNWL in house peer worker training,

Lauren 10:04

Yeah, so it must have been around 2015 I think that I started

Fiona 10:09

Yeah, I started in late 2015,

Lauren 10:11

Yeah

Fiona 10:12

and I had no idea then that the job would become what it is now. The peer workers would become what they are now, and that I would be sitting in a room. in Cambridge when I went to do Russell's training,

Lauren 10:30

Yeah

Fiona 10:32

of qualified members of staff, all using themselves and their emotions in their work. And that has just blown me away.

Lauren 10:44

Yeah, and I don't know what your experience was but in my experience those of us who didn't have loads and loads of professional training, plus those of us that maybe either had their own personal experience or had cared for people in their own personal experience. I think we took to some elements of the training a lot easier me it wasn't so much about learning open dialogue, it was about unlearning. A lot of practices and unlearning systems and a lot of it for me was about that human to human interaction and just bringing it back to basics and engaging with someone on that pure human level, which I think is a lot easier for people with lived experience, in my personal view, anyway. Because that's what we do in our day to day work. We don't work with diagnosis. We work with a person.

Fiona 11:47

You're saying it's a lot easier.

Lauren 11:49

Yeah.

Fiona 11:50

can you tell me a bit more about sort of how you would work with someone day to day, even before you did open dialogue training, even before you were a peer worker?

Lauren 12:02

Yeah. I was someone, you know, if anything, no matter what time of day, Someone knew that if they phoned me at five to five on a Friday afternoon, I would answer, you know, if someone needed me, I would be there and we need to have obviously boundaries and that's really important. I wouldn't look at my watch going. Oh, it's five o'clock now. I need to leave If something happened at four o'clock on a Friday or at half past four on a Friday, I would stay there with that individual, until everything was resolved and they were safe. If people were on a ward, so I, you know, I worked in a community team. If people were on a ward, I'd go and visit them. So like, I think that continuity of care was really important and something which I did anyway. if someone was referred to me, and they were on a ward, I'd make sure that I'd go and visit them a couple of times before they were discharged so we can get to know each other. So I think, you know, and I used to really really try and be with someone no matter, you know, where they were at, not, oh they're under this team now so they're being seen so they're fine because they're under home treatment team or they're in hospital. Actually I still want to have a relationship with this person, I still feel like it's really important to still maintain those relationships. with people. I used to sit with, you know, the individual plus their mum, daughter, dad, brother, you know, whoever. I used to kind of sit and really try to involve people's kind of families as well as much as possible. I think that was kind of really, yeah, really important and and just sitting with someone's distress and not feeling like we have all the answers. And sometimes if all I could do is just sit there and listen to someone, you know, and not feel like I have to intervene and go, Oh, let's do this. Let's do that. I mean, I'm no way qualified to, you know, give any, you know, advice about medication and stuff. Cause that's not, that's not what I'm here to do. But yeah, just sitting with, you know, someone's distress and just thanking someone for, you know, being really honest and open with me, or something that I used to do quite a lot, even though that might sound a little bit scary sometimes, but not feeling you have to do all the time.

Fiona 14:35

A bit scary.

Lauren 14:37

Yeah, I think sometimes as healthcare professionals, we might sometimes feel that we have to actively be doing something. But really, The only thing that we can do is just provide that person a space. And that is, even though you're not actively doing something, just that in itself is doing something, it's still providing something.

Fiona 15:06

Yeah, because they may not get that space anywhere else in their lives.

Lauren 15:10

Yeah, exactly. But that's not something that you can measure.

Fiona 15:16

No.

Lauren 15:17

But it's really important, I feel, sometimes for people.

Fiona 15:22

There's something isn't there about opening the door.

Lauren 15:25

No.

Fiona 15:26

We can't affect the choices that people make within themselves.

Lauren 15:33

But we can hopefully provide a safe space for people to talk, I think.

Fiona 15:39

yeah. My thoughts are that the structured reflections of open dialogue are extremely validating.

Lauren 15:47

That took time to get used to, that really took a lot of time. Doing reflections in a network meeting in front of the individual and their network, that took a lot of time to get used to, because it's not something that we have ever done. conversations happen in a room with other professionals quite often.

Fiona 16:12

We've become so used to talking about the person without the person

Lauren 16:17

Yeah.

Fiona 16:21

It has become abnormal to discuss somebody when they're actually there

Lauren 16:26

Yeah,

Fiona 16:27

in services, I feel, which is simply something that's happened over the years. I find myself saying quite a lot, you know, can we involve the person in this meeting?

Lauren 16:40

Hmm.

Fiona 16:41

And people look at me like, what? I'm like, you know, people have Teams. People have, phones,

Lauren 16:51

Yeah.

Fiona 16:53

and whilst there is a significant proportion of the population who are digitally excluded doesn't mean they can't be involved in meetings that are about them.

Lauren 17:04

Yeah.

Fiona 17:05

And being intimately involved in the implementation of open dialogue in CNWL, I've been finding that. Describing it is one of the hardest things, but it's a little bit like a multidisciplinary team meeting of the family and the team.

Lauren 17:27

Yeah. But everything just happens together with that person with their network.

Fiona 17:35

That is the dream.

Lauren 17:37

Yes.

Fiona 17:38

It is like chasing the end of a rainbow. to find that happy medium where not only do people want to be in a room together, but people are available to be in a room together. Yeah. because availability is always a question of time, isn't there?

Lauren 18:00

Yeah.

Fiona 18:04

Tell me, what was your first experience of open dialogue in real life as it were? So the live, actual experience of meeting with a co, practitioner, your first open dialogue meeting.

Lauren 18:19

My first ever network meeting. I don't remember tons. I remember the individual really well. And we ended up seeing this person for a little bit, before. You know, I, I left, but the, I think it's such a blur, the first one, I remember being incredibly nervous, being really, really, really nervous. but also, Russell was there, Dr. Razzaque was there as well. so I think one of the beauties about open dialogue is the fact that there's a consultant and I call him by his first name rather than by his title, because you're all practitioners, no matter what your, your job is, but yeah, I, I digress, but I, I do remember being really, really nervous. but you know, this person, where it was a pilot as well, everyone that was involved with it knew it was a pilot and they knew it was a particular way of working as well when we had to get permission and all this, you know, all this kind of stuff too. But the one thing I do remember about it was it was the very, very first time that I did some self disclosure. I just felt really empowered, but at the same time there was this tiny little part of me that was like, Oh, this feels so weird. But all I said was, you know, I really identified with what this individual was saying, because it, you know, I'd been in that position as well. And I'd felt that feeling before myself. And that's all I said. I didn't go into any more detail. and that was during the reflection that we were doing in the room. And this, person's response to the reflection is they thanked me for that. And I was like, Oh, and in a very selfish note, that felt really good. And I think that really just reinforced What I wanted to do, who I was as a mental health professional thinking actually I do have a really powerful tool here that I can use. And if I was, properly trained on how to do it, this is a skill that I have or that I could develop that could be really, really useful to people as well. but yeah, I just remember feeling so nervous initially, but it went, really well. There were some things which were really alien and we were there for, I think it was about three hours and it was really draining but it was great at the same time. And I remember walking out of this person's house thinking, Oh my gosh, right, but there is, there was just something about it which felt so refreshing and so different. At any other point in services, when are you going to spend three hours with someone? it's just not going to happen. and as we had more network meetings, there weren't always three hours, you know, you're not taking hours and hours out of your day every week, but the first ones initially were really long. But that was what was needed at that moment in time and yeah, I just hope that that person's doing really really well as well because there are certain people that you work with that really stay with you

Fiona 21:37

I wonder, could you describe that skill? That you. discovered using yourself, I guess, using your personal experience. I am certainly a believer that there are definitely right and wrong ways to do it. if you could just describe that skill a bit more, cause I think that it's intimately related to how network meetings operate.

Lauren 22:02

Yeah. It's that genuine empathy, I think, and, and all, you know, all I said was, I'd felt this way before. I could really identify with what they were saying and that wasn't just me saying it because in a hypothetical situation I could understand it but I think I just really wanted this person to know that I could feel it because I had been there and I had felt it myself and it was that genuine empathy but you're right there is right ways and wrong ways to self disclose and I didn't At the time I was really having a battle with myself whether I should say it or not because it's not about me. It's about this person and how much do I say? What do I say? But, you know, now obviously looking back on it, the answer is actually, yes, you disclose what is very helpful for the person to hear and, you know, nothing else. You don't say stuff because you just want to get everything off of your chest. And this, because this particular person also worked for the NHS in a non peer capacity. And so in that sense, it was like looking in a mirror almost and going, yes, actually, I know exactly what it feels like to have, these feelings and emotions, but also have to be professional and working in mental health services, but having this real identity crisis, I guess. But luckily it went well and the person felt really validated and that's kind of what I wanted out of it. But it's almost like in a peer support and, lived experience practice. It's like having a superpower, And because we have turned some of the most horrendous situations that we've been in into a positive, And just flipping the narrative completely on its head. And I love doing that.

Fiona 24:18

I also love flipping the narrative completely on its head. That's good. I like that. I feel I'm feeling that as a title.

Lauren 24:25

Yep.

Fiona 24:26

Yeah, it's good. so you were saying that you wouldn't have become a peer worker if it wasn't for open dialogue.

Lauren 24:37

Mm.

Fiona 24:38

But that you haven't practiced open dialogue for a while.

Lauren 24:41

Yeah.

Fiona 24:42

would you see where, I mean, I suppose the ultimate question, isn't it, is where do you see open dialogue in 10 years time, being as how you've seen it 10 years ago, right at the start there,

Lauren 24:56

Yeah, yeah.

Fiona 25:00

We've just recently had at least two cohorts of people, one particularly large cohort, in 2022 go through this training in CNWL. So you saw it start. where do you see it in 10 years time?

Lauren 25:17

I know what I kind of hope for,

Fiona 25:20

Tell us what

Lauren 25:20

is, I hope it is an offer that people can choose to have if they want to. I think that's also really important.

Fiona 25:30

choose to have.

Lauren 25:32

yeah, or just something that is offered, to people. You can have this, you can have that, you can have this, you know, these types of therapies, or you can go here, or you can have open dialogue, and you can go down this route, and my hope is for, trusts that do have enough staff trained for them to have dedicated open dialogue teams where they could do it, and then eventually, hopefully it will branch out, a lot further, but I think you don't want to do things too quickly and you always run the risk of if you expand things too quickly, then you deviate from the model. And open dialogue works because of the model. And it wouldn't really work if you try and dilute it in any way and have this fast food version of it. It works because of the way it works and it is something which really depends on a completely separate system than what the NHS works on at the moment. In terms of time, how many sessions people have in terms of that continuity of care, and having the same team throughout someone's journey through services. You know, we're not going to change all of those systems overnight. But, if we start doing it and we get really good results, which I'm hoping that, we do because I've seen it work. then through that we can, expand it more and more. And my hope is just it can be offered to people. Like I said at the beginning, if this was around when I was younger, if I had had this type of intervention from the beginning, probably would have saved a lot of other years in services that I might have had.

Fiona 27:30

Yeah, I hear a lot of people say that.

Lauren 27:35

Hmm.

Fiona 27:35

it myself.

Lauren 27:37

Yeah.

Fiona 27:40

it's not an easy or a quick approach, but I don't think it's easy or quick when you become mentally unwell, or for that matter, physically unwell. I think it always takes work to get better. And I suppose by that I mean it takes an effort of will to make change that's what is so exhausting about the whole process is feeling able to make those changes and being supported to make those changes.

Lauren 28:19

Yeah,

Fiona 28:20

Making those changes, no one can do it for you. But if all of your best people are around you, I feel like you stand a better chance, don't you think?

Lauren 28:29

The people around you are so, so important. and with the best will in the world, I have, some family members that I'm incredibly close to, and I know love me, but they just don't understand. my diagnosis or how my diagnosis affects me, but having things like this where you can all sit in a room together in a safe space, which is really important and have these conversations. I think every single one of them, including myself would have been much better equipped to deal with things when they come up because we'd all be singing from the same hymn sheet.

Fiona 29:10

It is about being equipped as well. I feel that currently in the sort of, fragmented state of services that, through no fault of their own or through the fault of any human beings have been quite shut off from each other, I suppose.

Lauren 29:27

Yeah. And for me, I think one of the great things about pod, you know, but whatever, type of open dialogue that people are using is every single voice is equal. there isn't one person sitting there making all the decisions. It's everyone, and everyone gets their say, everyone gets a chance to talk, everyone says what they might think is best, but ultimately you come together as a team to make a plan for someone.

Fiona 30:01

And it is a team, isn't it? The network.

Lauren 30:05

Yeah. I will never, ever, ever forget. I was a support worker and having a psychiatrist say to me in a network meeting, the topic of conversation was around medication and then going to me, Lauren, what do you think? And it was just so profound going, well, I don't know, because I don't have a medical degree. I don't have a pharmacy degree. but what I could do is I could, you know, latch onto what the individual was saying and going, actually, I really understand their point about X, Y and Z. And I can feel how important that is for them.

Fiona 30:43

Yeah.

Lauren 30:44

So even though I'm, you know, and people. are going to have different specialities, but everyone can bring something to the conversation, even if it is, and like it was with this medication, just validating this person's feelings.

Fiona 31:03

Yeah.

Lauren 31:04

Rather than going, well, you don't have an opinion because you don't know what you're talking about. But actually I could empathize with what this individual person was saying and making sure that that was heard and empathizing with what this person's network was saying and making sure that everyone else was, heard around it, which I feel was really important.

Fiona 31:27

It's a really special way of listening, isn't it?

Lauren 31:29

Yeah.

Fiona 31:31

I really like the attempt to flatten the hierarchy. Whilst acknowledging that it can never be truly flat.

Lauren 31:36

people are still going to have their specialisms. But the great thing about open dialogue is it allows for that as well. If you're in a network meeting and that individual is sitting there going, I really want CBT, there's absolutely nothing to say that this person can't also have CBT sessions as well. it allows for, whatever is helpful to that person. Let's do it, like there's nothing that says this is the only thing, if that's what this individual wants, great, that they can have their sessions and then let's bring their CBT therapist into one of our network meetings as well. So we all know what's going on and that's one of the key things for me, I think, is it's not exclusive.

Fiona 32:25

Yeah. So what would you say, because I need a piece of advice now,

Lauren 32:31

Okay.

Fiona 32:32

say, to a member of staff or somebody from an outside agency, who you invite into a network meeting and they say, Oh, that's mental health. That's not really part of my remit. How do we bridge that gap?

Lauren 32:49

Mental health doesn't exist in a vacuum. there are lots of, just life in general is, everything affects something else. you can have people whose mental health is really linked to their social situation or to relationships and things like that. Everyone wants the same goal, right? Everyone wants this individual to be happy and healthy and whatever is going to help that, then great, we need to get people on board and everyone reading from the same page. You can't force anyone to do it, you know, to do a network meeting. but I think it's just reiterating the point of, well, actually this, this is going to be really helpful for everyone.

Fiona 33:34

Yeah, talking about the reason for the meeting rather than the setting, or the precipitating problem. that's very good advice. Thank you. yeah, I feel like we've got a little way to go. With implementing Open Dialogue,

Lauren 33:54

Yeah.

Fiona 33:54

we've learned a lot, since this podcast and since I started, working in the Open Dialogue development team and, all of it's been incredibly interesting and incredibly challenging very difficult, which is exactly how I like it.

Lauren 34:10

Yeah,

Fiona 34:10

I love a difficult role.

Lauren 34:12

glutton for punishment.

Fiona 34:13

So do you also enjoy challenging work?

Lauren 34:17

extent, yeah, I enjoy it. I love a good argument, but that's by and by.

Fiona 34:23

Excellent. I think, I think it's a prerequisite.

Lauren 34:27

I think so.

Fiona 34:29

I really do actually, because, it's something about being robust enough to really talk about things and unpack things. I think when people say, I love a good argument, actually, it usually means that they're quite Internally robust, perhaps.

Lauren 34:51

yeah, I mean, usually it's with my husband at home, not so much at work. He gets the brunt of it all when I'm home if I've had a particularly terrible day. and there's something. about open dialogue and also peer support and lived experience work they're both really pioneering. And within that, you have to shout stuff out from the room where something's new. People don't like, I don't like change, but people don't like change. And anytime something new comes along, it's different. It's scary. People don't understand it. And it takes for these kind of early adopters to get to shout from the rooftops going, no, this is great. This is amazing. you have to be really confident in what you do. otherwise people just won't listen and it falls by the wayside.

Fiona 35:43

To an extent that confidence is something that we're learning to have, in the teams that are piloting open dialogue because confidence is something you can't really give a certificate in

Lauren 35:55

No.

Fiona 35:55

new pioneering way to hear people, often who are very, very unwell and at high risk, to suddenly become confident in a pioneering technique that you've only just learnt is something we cannot ask of people, I feel.

Lauren 36:15

But you also have to have the opposite of ego. you have to know when to step back and to go, actually, I'm not going to push this right now as well. you have to have some sort of humility at the same time.

Fiona 36:32

Mixture of going from being a professional who has been trained to hide your emotions strenuously and to stick to lots of quite pre existing and very well worn boundaries of say the 50 minute appointment and not answering the phone outside of those appointments or whatever those boundaries are. And having the confidence in your 25 years of experience with people, and probably not as much humility as you maybe could have to go from that, where you're very comfortable to using your own feelings as you sense them in your own body. to having quite an open ended appointment with some people you have not met before from a person's life. having the confidence is almost like having the chutzpah to do that, upon the strength of quite short training, I think is extraordinarily brave and pioneering, as you say, of the professionals who are pushing this forward. It's quite a thing. to be doing it, I think, for all the people who've taken it on and run forward with it.

Lauren 37:51

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Fiona 37:53

We are right at the beginning, but it's certainly something that fills me with hope for the future, and not despair, which is always a good thing.

Lauren 38:02

Same, and you know, when I did the training, there was four NHS trusts, and it's expanded even beyond that now, so that's, you know, I think that could only be a good thing. That a lot more trusts are kind of signing up to it actually, yeah, let's try it, let's see, see what happens.

Fiona 38:22

We're waiting, aren't we, for a critical mass of people to be trained, for the tide to turn. We can only dream of what will really happen in 10 years time.

Lauren 38:32

yeah.

Fiona 38:34

Yeah. Thank you. It's been really, really wonderful to talk to you, and to hear you and to hear your story. I'm really fascinated by whether you feel this is a safe enough space to reveal the actual name of your diagnosis. Thank you.

Lauren 38:53

I have four different, I'm one of those people.

Fiona 38:56

You've got

Lauren 38:56

have, I have four, yeah, it's also one of the reasons why I'm really passionate, kind of about not, you know, about seeing people beyond the diagnosis, because diagnoses, change quite a lot.

Fiona 39:07

Once you've got four, surely they become less and less meaningful

Lauren 39:11

yeah, I'm expecting a medal at some point, like it still hasn't come, but you know,

Fiona 39:15

Maximum number of diagnoses, of psychiatric diagnoses. There should be that medal. I might have to make you that medal.

Lauren 39:24

Yeah, I should. But that's, yeah, the wonderful thing about human beings. So I've, I've got diagnoses of depression, anxiety, complex PTSD, and bipolar. they're not really, like, contradictory. and yeah, I'm 35 now. I've been using services since 13. It's good. Yeah, things are good. You know, things kind of change and develop as stuff goes on.

Fiona 39:50

It's often the way, isn't it, that depression and anxiety Going hand in hand as they do, in the some kind of awful cycle. They're often a kind of starter diagnosis.

Lauren 40:02

Yeah.

Fiona 40:03

but it doesn't mean that we then don't suffer from those things for, you know, continuously throughout our other many collected diagnoses.

Lauren 40:13

No, but it's funny though. And I say that, you know, we see people as a whole person and a diagnosis. But the thing that really, really helped me was a particular type of trauma therapy that I never would have received if I didn't have my PTSD diagnosis. So, it was incredibly helpful in that regard and getting me to really work on, the particular traumas that I'd gone through, and really work on those and I never would have got that therapy if I didn't have a diagnosis in the first place. Yeah, human beings, we're wonderful, we are complicated and we're great.

Fiona 40:56

that's a brilliant, brilliant way to end. Thank you for that.

Narrator 41:01

Thank you for listening we really hope that we'll have the pleasure of having you as one of our listeners again. And that's it for this episode of Open Pod Pod. Join us for the next episode.