Open POD pod

3.5 It just feels so safe

• Fiona Eastmond

Share episode

Send us a text

In a first for the podcast, Fiona interviews someone who is receiving Open Dialogue in the form of network meetings. Our guest's experience is moving, touching and real, and they have asked to remain anonymous. This episode has been completely co-produced: our guest edited the whole thing with Fiona, going through every word until we were both completely comfortable and happy with it. We are very proud of this episode and hope that it will be the first of many.  

Narrator:

Welcome to season three of open POD pod. My name's Fiona and I'm an open dialogue practitioner, just beginning to develop some hours of practice. We'd really love it. If the things that we talk about in this podcast, Could sit alongside any learning that anyone's doing about open dialogue.

Fiona:

Okay.

Guest:

Right, well I'm here really because I've been, having Open Dialogue for the last four or five months. Initially I was very, very sceptical. I've got to say, I wasn't confident it would be of any help at all, um, because nothing else had really worked enough for me to feel my life was sort of worth living. And I just felt a burden on the NHS. And I felt hopeless. I felt like a heart sink to everybody. And, you know, I I didn't feel good about myself.

Fiona:

It's okay to say um.

Guest:

Um, okay. So anyway I thought I'm gonna give it a go because I'll try anything and I've tried everything nothing's really worked well enough

Fiona:

I guess maybe if I give you a little bit of my working background I guess is a, jeweller and a designer, artist, I've worked in lots of shops, bars, all over the place in all kinds of different walks of life, I suppose. And, um, I had my, I had a breakdown, it was just before that, I think. I was, um, was diagnosed with, um, Borderline Personality Disorder, as they called it at the time. But yeah, I went through a very, very chaotic, period in my life. And as I was just coming out of it, somebody who worked in the NHS said, Why don't you become a peer support worker? And I said, Well, what's one of those? And that's how I started nine years ago. in Woodfield Road, and, you know, people ask what peer support workers do and the answer is pretty much everything. I have a lot of transferable skills, um, but it's been a huge learning curve working in, um, the caring profession to, to set boundaries has taken such a long time. Before I even came in I had, um, because I was self harming, I had quite a nice little online group of friends, and we actually met up in real life. And we all met up, and Lindz said a few years on that she was making a video about self harm for a charity called harmless and i'm in that video and that kind of broke the silence made me realize that it was okay to talk about it but there's still loads and loads and loads of stigma and i I find it to be, it's not even part and parcel of my, you know, job. It's part of who I am to consistently fight that. Because it, you know, it affects people's lives deeply. Working in the NHS is potentiallyy best described as a roller-coaster. Um, but my whole life changed when I came across Open Dialogue. The way that I see the world is completely different now. And co facilitating network meetings it's hard but it's such a privilege. And it's so nice to see. People just relaxing when they realise that we're listening. That we're authentically being ourselves in the room. And actually talking about our feelings. Using our honest bodily reactions to help to validate what it is that they're going through. And I feel like Open Dialogue is one tiny little spark of something that could be so good,

Guest:

I was a nurse, you know, for 40 years. Wow. I worked as a nurse for 40 years. That's

Fiona:

so cool. That's just incredible. It's like a superhero's job. I

Guest:

know, hideous. Sorry, no, it wasn't, it was wonderful. I've suffered from mental health issues right from my childhood, really. You know, anxiety attacks and etc, etc. I mean, it really, it's not been an easy life, but I've managed, I've learnt a way of coping and fitting in and performing. So I fit in, and, you know, I'm seen as normal. And, you know, learn to make people laugh and, um, can be good fun. And people would have no idea how much I've suffered and do suffer still. Um, and, uh, you know, I did really well at work. Um, very good at my job because I understood people's pain, having, very often feeling the pain myself at the same time as listening to somebody, but you know, you have that lived experience and so, I was good at what I did, and eventually I, on top of all this, I burnt out, as you do in the National Health Service, you do tend to burn out because you're so overwhelmed and you can't do your job as well as, You want to, and, um, and it's so painful seeing people suffering both physically and mentally. One of the hardest things was because of the stigma associated with mental ill health, and it was even worse, like, 40 years ago. And, I couldn't tell anyone, I wouldn't have got a job, I wouldn't, so you don't, you don't, you know, I didn't want to go to the doctor, you know, and I, so I kept it all to myself because I thought, these people are going to think I'm absolutely useless and, you know, not, incapable. It was just, you know, it's a stigma, basically, and, people wouldn't want to know you,

Fiona:

Did you worry that if you revealed what you were going through, that you would lose your job?

Guest:

I've actually worked for anything as I've actually worked in occupational health. I mean, I used to do one, one of my jobs and I, we used to do screening and one of the things we're told to look out for with nurses that were applying this is when, there wasn't such a shortage of nurses. I'm probably going back about 30 years. And you would actually look out for applicants that had mental health problems and you wouldn't take them on, basically.

Wow.

Guest:

we were told not to. So, I mean, that's how bad it was. And there was me hiding this thing, actually. And I wasn't receiving, I was on antidepressants. I've been on antidepressants since, I think I was probably one of the first people to take Prozac. And I've sort of been on and off them, and I do need them. I don't know how they work, but they sort of do take the edge off the anxiety, I think, more than anything else. I've tried every antidepressant there is, and, you know. I'm now in my 60s, and, It affected my ability to have, good close relationships and, and, you know, because I was frightened of, boyfriends actually getting to know the real me and seeing that I actually was a complete mess inside, and it was just too painful keeping it in, you know. So it's been very, it's been a very lonely, lonely, lonely life. Yeah. I've got good friends, you know, I was and I still am very popular. Um, and when things are bad, I'm off radar for a while and I can tend to go into sort of depression for a long period, long periods of time. So I've been on the antidepressants, I'm back on them again now'cause I tried to go without, um, I've had. counselling. This is all a bit later on, so I think probably it's all quite ingrained, but it was quite later on, say probably from the age of sort of 40 plus, I started receiving counselling from them, maybe even later than that. I've started to understand where things have come from and, you know, the trauma and all that stuff, and I know that I understand what, you know, and I've learnt tools. That have helped me to cope with these feelings I get. I've had a very good GP for many years, who, I'd see regularly

Fiona:

You were saying that you had a very good gp. I think gps are where everything starts. You know, they are the heart of the service. Mm. And I wonder from a open dialogue point of view, if, if gps need to be the first to know about open dialogue. Oh, 100%. Not the last to know, you know,

Guest:

my GP was a, she, she was a real advocate for me. Unfortunately, she's retired now, but, I used to see her about once a month, once every six weeks. For a check in? For a check in. Touch base, safety net. Um, she, she was non judgmental, you know. I felt that she treated me like a human being and not like a Mental health patient.

Fiona:

Excellent. And those are two very clearly defined ways in which we treat people. Um, which is very, very sad. And I've found that and I've seen it and I've even noticed it in myself. I think it's so difficult to get over those societally embedded stigma, prejudice, assumptions. Othering. Othering. It's the othering. Oh. Oh, that should be the, that should be the title of this episode.

Guest:

No, seriously, I've seen it, and I've seen it actually in my work. Because I worked in general practice for many years. I've been in the meetings where mental health patients are discussed. It was shocking sometimes. It was shocking, the Othering and it was almost, I remember one patient was being discussed, this isn't that long ago, not that long before I left, there was one patient that was being discussed and not all the doctors were like this, not all the GPs were like this, but it only takes one or two. It's true. And I, I witnessed it, and I thought they could be saying that about me. Um, so it's made me incredibly sensitive and very mistrustful actually. And I heard, there was an audible sigh of relief. by, from one of the GPs, because it meant that they didn't, and I know they didn't meant they didn't feel they had to care and worry too much because they were concerned about her. And it was like, Oh, that's what it is. Ah, right. But it was almost like label, that's it. And I thought, Oh, that's, this is how, so I know I've seen it and it happens. It happens in society and in people that should know better. It does concern me, maybe the training or the, I don't know, but, you know, as you were saying about open dialogue, I think it probably could really help for GPs to be trained in it. so, you know, it was very, and they have a really hard job. GPs? Yeah, they have a really, really, really hard job. It's pretty tough, isn't it? And it's much easier to get through without. If you're very sensitive,

you do

Guest:

tend to burn out. Especially as things are, you do tend to burn out quicker, I think. I

Fiona:

It's so hard working in mental health services when we have those heightened sensitivities. You know, good empathy, and really getting a sense of people. It's so essential for good work, but it really makes you feel quite vulnerable and exposed. And then I guess open dialogue working does make the clinicians more vulnerable and feel more exposed. But I really hope that Um, and I think that, actually, it's worth it for the shortcut to being able to relate to people in a way in which is authentic and doesn't have that sense of othering in the room. So, what, what was your first experience of open dialogue like

Guest:

I felt, um, I felt that they were in it with me. They were all with me. And they, it wasn't something that was being done to me and I wasn't being judged. I felt there was, even, even just having kind voices made such a difference and there was, it was, I felt sort of respected and I felt, um, I'm not saying that previously I haven't felt respected, it was just, and I think possibly I'm lucky because I've learned about meditation. I do meditation and I've learned, I have techniques now to cope with feelings, but it's just, it just feels so safe. And I feel I'm not going to be judged and it's just knowing that they're there and that I will see them again in say a month or whenever and if I needed to bring it forward I could do means that it's taken away that extra anxiety of um, being left with this pain which on my own to cope with because it's sometimes it's overwhelming. And, um, am I making sense? So much sense.

Fiona:

You're making so much sense.

Guest:

And I'm terribly grateful, I'm very grateful to the, to, to all the other clinicians I've seen in the past because, you know, I, I, I've learned so much about the cause of my problems and how to perhaps deal with them.

Fiona:

And I, I just wondered if you feel like you are still holding it completely alone.

Guest:

Do you know what it feels like? And, uh, I did explain, I described this before. I, I feel what happens is I go, I, I go into this pit. Mm-hmm a really dark pit with a very steep sides.

Fiona:

Yeah.

Guest:

And it, when I'm in that pit. It can take me sometimes weeks to get out of it and I grasp to try and get it and that that is it's like hell in there. It's like walking on eggshells sometimes. I have to try not to, when I'm out of it, which takes a while. I'd be really, really careful that I don't fall in again, because once I get in, it's so powerful, the feelings are so bad, it's very, very, very hard to get out.

Really

Guest:

hard. And that's when I'm in crisis, and I've had crisis after crisis, and I've been, you know, I've been quite ill at times, and um, and you know, it's been a bit dangerous, what I've found in Open Dialogue since I started is I don't feel, I'm not so frightened of the pit and um, I feel that there are almost, the last session I had was, I, I wasn't in a good place at all. I was terribly upset. And this is the first time it's ever happened. I honestly felt that they were in there with me. Um, and I promise you this has never happened in my life. Ever. They were in the pit with me and I wasn't so frightened of it. And I sort of gradually came, came out of it. It was like the sides weren't so steep. And it wasn't so dark. And I felt that they were like holding my hand and they helped me out. Um, it was amazing, actually. It's

Fiona:

incredibly touched to feel tears pricking at the back of my eyes as you're talking about that because I think that it's the ultimate, I guess it's the ultimate goal for clinicians really. It's like, because that, that's why we're here. That is why we came into this job in the first place. It's because we want to be able to extend that hand and help you out. Nobody deserves any of the amount of pain that people are in. And sometimes I guess it feels impossible within systems which we've touched on. I feel like open dialogue transcends systems in some way. If it's allowed to.

Guest:

Yeah. It does concern me that, the practitioners, I hope that they get, adequate support because, I suppose that was one of my, one of my concerns is if somebody's dragged in there with me, um, it's not a nice place to be but it, it really helped and. I think that they could see that it had helped me and, I was told if I needed contact, them between now and the next appointment I could do. And knowing that, it sort of meant I hadn't needed to. Just knowing there's that safety net there. And that they're not scared of me and it's not rigid and, you know, and, sometimes I've felt in the past that I'm being, like, naughty by being unwell and being badly behaved. Because I'm unhappy and how it shows itself sometimes is, you know, it's just not behaving normally. It's, that's all sort of been taken away. And so I think I'm starting to understand how it does work. But all I can say is that since I've been doing this in the last five months, That's the longest period I've not had crises. Amazing. You know, I've been a bit wobbly a few times and I have, you know, been upset and, um, but nothing like it, it was. And I can feel, I can see there is some hope, you know.

Fiona:

That's amazing to hear.

Guest:

So, now I'm really, really, really grateful.

Fiona:

I just love that there's some hope, and it's so, and it's both so difficult and so simple to offer a reflective space that's non judgmental, that is slightly structured, which is what Open Dialogue is, really, I suppose in some ways we're holding up a mirror to each other sometimes. It was really moving to hear that you felt that Alastair and Gareth were there with you. Because that's, that's the best we can do is to be alongside you.

Guest:

It's also how, and the other thing I must say is that I, I, my son agreed to come along and he's been to most of the sessions, not all of them because of his work, but, I wouldn't ask anybody else, but because he's been exposed to, he's, he's witnessed me being, um, unwell. So to put it that way, um, and I thought it may be helpful to him as well as to me. and, uh, it really has. It's given, it's really helped our relationship enormously. And he's got a better, he's got a better understanding of me and he, um, He lives at home with me, you see, he talks about his issues, if he has any, and it's um, it's been really helpful, it's really helped a lot.

Fiona:

Do you ever find yourself reflecting with each other in that sort of, I suppose, dialogical style? Um, at home, has it improved the communication clarity?

Guest:

Unbelievably, so. Unbelievably. It's really, really helped our relationship. And I also think, my, one of my concerns was that he would feel too involved. And he would feel that I was a burden, because my big fear is being a burden on people. He would feel that in some way he had to look after me, and that he, but it's, it's completely the contrary, in that he can see that there is a safe place for me, there is somewhere that I can, there are people I can talk to, and, and also he's been so much more open about his, his struggles with me. Um, and um, he likes coming along now, which is great. He's So when he can, he does. And if I am there on my own, what's interesting is, that Gareth or um, Alastair will say, what do you think your father would think now? Or your sister or whoever, you know. And it's as if they, they put them in the room with me. And that's really interesting how that, that does work. That's very helpful.

Fiona:

It's the systemic part. It's amazing that it's amazing how kind of charged it can be as well, but in a quite a safe boundaried space inside an open dialogue meeting. I wonder if your fear of being a burden has lessened a little with meeting Alistair and Gareth and also in coming to meetings with you

Guest:

and Yes, it definitely has, has done. Um, oh I do worry about them, I do still worry about them. Because it still feels, I still worry about them a bit but then maybe that's just my nature. But it's less so now and they do sort of reassure me and, um.

Fiona:

I mean, I guess I'd kind of quite like to put it on tape that you're definitely not a burden to me. I can only speak for myself. But, er, I feel like it's an absolute gift that you come here today to really speak from the heart. And it's so tough sitting with a microphone and thinking, what, what can I say that will even be slightly acceptable or even hearable or any of these things? And am I talking too much? And I really, really, really appreciate you being here and coming. And hearing your voice, um, and um, yeah, I just, I, I felt moved to say that. Moved to say that, it's, it's been life changing for me, um, learning about open dialogue. Something that you spoke about quite early on was the stigma, not just in society, but within the medical profession of mental health. And I suppose that, I'd love to say it's gone. It hasn't gone, but I can say that there has been It's a very significant improvement inside those professional meetings. It has been,

Guest:

yeah. There

Fiona:

really has been. Good, good. And I can say that from very fresh, recent experience.

Guest:

Good. So that's really reassuring to hear.

Fiona:

Yeah, I just I

Guest:

really wanted to share that. there's some very, there's some amazing GPS out there. Actually, I've worked with them. Yeah. And, um, I have a problem with labels. That's my issues. It's the labels. And once you're labeled, you're put into a category. And I feel that, um, open dialogue, there isn't, you're not labeled. You're a human being and it's very humane, respectful, but the labels in themselves can be extremely triggering.

Oh yeah.

Guest:

Quite destructive I think, quite dangerous.

Fiona:

Yeah, yeah, I agree. But

Guest:

it's tidy, you see.

Fiona:

It is totally different.

Guest:

It's very tidy for them. For some people to have, you know, they think, OK, she's got this, she's got that, and it's for referral pathways and all that sort of stuff and everything. But, no, you know what? More than that.

It's more

Guest:

complex and, you know, but let's find a, just, you know, I know, I understand it. But it's, um, I'm a mixture of everything. I've got loads of different labels, actually. And I'm also very, very normal as well, that's one of my labels.

Fiona:

I've got some really

Guest:

nice labels.

Fiona:

Yeah, you're normal, what other labels, what other labels apart from

Guest:

normal? Well, I'm funny, I can be funny, I can be um, nice labels.

Oh,

Guest:

you're a good, I wasn't, okay, um. I'm smiley. I always smile, even when I feel awful, I smile. I'm smiley, I'm funny, I'm caring. And um, I've got, I've got, I am, I am, I work really hard. I was really good at my job. I'm not very clever, but I work hard. Are

Fiona:

you sure?

Guest:

Well, I don't know. I did the right, but I work. Yeah. I'm terribly conscientious. And I've got, I'm so, I'm so, just so, my big slip is I'm so incredibly sensitive. And that's, but that's a good thing, you see. But it can verge into mental illness. It

Fiona:

is tough being a sensitive person in an insensitive world. Yeah. Um, I, I'd love to say as a sense of, as a fellow sensitive person, I've mastered the art of, um, not being sensitive when the time comes and being sensitive when it is required. Uh, all I can say is that is a work in progress. Um, it's, um, I think I've come to believe that people like you and me who are sensitive are sensitive for a reason. It sounds so trite and awful. I think that, you know, we're here because we're here. We are this way. We were born this way. We're sensitive people, and we need to use that sensitivity in a way that is not damaging for us. In a way that's lovely for other people, so we can work in caring professions. Great. Excellent. And that's the hardest flex there is, is to turn it around and be like, no I deserve this. I also deserve this. And that's something I'm continuing to learn every minute of every day. And, um, you know, life serves us what it serves us, doesn't it? Mm. You're too right. Um, is there anything you'd like to add just before the

Guest:

end? Um, well, just my, um, just my thanks and my gratitude actually for this being around. Honestly, for this being, not for the podcast. Fair open dialogue. No, fair open dialogue. Being here, because it honestly, it is amazing. It is amazing, how it works. I don't understand quite how it works, but I know how it makes me feel. And it does make me feel better. Makes me feel stronger. So, uh, thank you. And whoever. For setting this up. And I hope it continues. Is it just a pilot or something at the moment? It is a pilot at the moment, yeah.

Fiona:

I hope it continues as well. I really hope it continues.

Guest:

It has to continue. Because I tell you what, If you're worrying about cost effectiveness, it's, it's saved the NHS money, me not going into crisis and endless phone calls and A& E and all this sort of thing and, you know, I haven't needed any of that since I've been doing Open Dialogue, so it's, it's a no brainer.

Fiona:

Thank you. Thank you so much for coming and making the time.

Narrator:

Thank you for listening we really hope that we'll have the pleasure of having you as one of our listeners again. And that's it for this episode of Open Pod Pod. Join us for the next episode.