Open POD pod

3.2 IMDRAP special - Martijn Kole

• Fiona Eastmond • Season 3 • Episode 2

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Fiona and her roving mike went to the 28th International Meeting on Dialogical and Reflective Approaches to Psychosis and Other Challenging Mental States (IMDRAP) conference and sat down with quite a few people to have chats about the state of Peer-informed Open Dialogue in the NHS and beyond. Martijn is a very experienced peer worker and delighted Fiona with his thoughts about what Open Dialogue could mean for services. 

Narrator:

Welcome to season three of open POD pod. My name's Fiona and I'm an open dialogue practitioner, just beginning to develop some hours of practice. We'd really love it. If the things that we talk about in this podcast, Could sit alongside any learning that anyone's doing about open dialogue.

Fiona:

So we're here at SOAS, at the IMDRAP conference, and I'm just grabbing random people to see what it is that they're thinking. Usually just say introduce yourself. Yes.

Martijn:

I'm Martijn Kole, and I'm, uh, 53. And I'm a peer lead in the Netherlands. So I, uh, I'm really involved in the peer movement from, from my early days in psychiatry. And, uh, out of the work that I wanted to transform mental health services in the Netherlands, I stumbled on open dialogue. So I did a lot of peer work and peer groups and recovery colleges, a hundred percent peer run recovery colleges. And I did a lot of training and transforming mental health services. And when I stumbled on Open Dialogue and especially Pearsport Open Dialogue in the UK, we, we as a collective thought, okay, we need to bring that to the Netherlands. So I was part of a frontrunners group that, that tried to bring Pearsport Open Dialogue to the Netherlands and I was trained together with others in Pearsport Open Dialogue in the UK years ago. And it was really, um, something that brought me a lot, uh, and it was really a lot of similarities with the peer movement and the peer groups, how we used to reflect and talk and, in an embodied way. So it was like a bit coming home, uh, in a sense that's, uh,

Fiona:

I really relate to that, coming home from a peer perspective. Um, I work as a peer in the UK and. The experience of being open dialogue trained was transformative for me But the best part was watching it transform professionals and people I work with and that Experience is something that I've really carried with me I wonder if you could tell me a bit more about your 100 percent peer led recovery colleges, because I have a vested interest.

Martijn:

Yes, they emerge from a history of peer support groups that we established within our organization. I work for a Sheltered living organization where I used to live and we, I, I got a lot of my regained agency from being part of a peer group. And, so we thought, okay, how can we bring this to the next level? So we thought, okay, let's think of models we can use. So we were inspired by. Um, the peer zones from Merrill Hagan of the New Zealand, but also for the learning environment community idea of Boston and later the UK. So we thought, okay, we take it out of the. Perspective of a therapeutic, uh, idea and into more of a, yeah, learn to live perspective. How do I want to shape and learn to live? But with a deeper understanding that, that, that, that space for the connection and the, sharing and, and feeling. A deeper level on sharing those, those, those, those deep emotions and, and, and imprinting experiences that you had as a user, that, that, that you're not alone, that there are others who have similar experiences and that, and that there is space for you to take and to, to shape. Uh, and, and empower and, and, and, and use your voice, find your voice. Uh, so we thought, okay, leave the, that the medical model, but leave also that professional tendency to, to take over out of our zone. So we, we really shut our zone from all kinds of influences that, That, that, that, that changed that real equal reciprocal process of that, that we co created as users ourselves with a constant influx of new users to create a broader peer support self help program in, in, in a beautiful way, uh, and with more and more, Uh, colleges connected to that. The agency and the control we had made it that that space was really open and, and, and that people really connected. Not because we thought, okay, uh, professionals are bad or, you know, But there's enough of professionals already and they have enough of space already. So we said, okay, let us do it from A to Z, from A to Z. And, and we can do it. And that is something because I, I, I strongly believe that, that by involving users themselves, That they own that space, so our ANIC Recovery College is owned by the participants, not by us facilitating, but by the people who are using it as a, together we are a, uh, a peer environment, we are a community in a sense that we are always open for new people and people can go and they can say, okay, I've had enough and. So it is, in the middle of society, it's an open community for everyone who wants to reflect on their life and how they want to shape and connect or maybe also not connect. And so there's no model that is followed as how it is a being model. It is space for people to, to, to experience themselves, their own lived experience in the sense that, that the way you can feel yourself. And that is so important. To, to preserve, to create, to preserve. And people who are left out, people who are ejected or, or, or rejected or, and that is where that deep connection is because I felt it myself. I have experienced it myself and, and experienced also hopelessness and, and, and, and helplessness. And. Think that, that people grow by having something to add, something to offer. So at ANIC, at 100 percent peer run college, people have something to offer and that's why they grow. They don't grow because they have something to receive. They have something to offer in that relationship, in all those relationships, in running the college, in doing those peer support self help groups. They offer their experiential knowledge and their energy to others. And others offer it to them. And that's the, the multitude of voices of, that, that is so powerful.

Fiona:

And that is polyphony, really. Yes,

Martijn:

that's polyphony. Not only polyphony, but also ownership. You, you own all, you're partly owning the thing. It is not by, okay, there are two peers who are trying to create polyphony by others. With others, no, together you are, you're really equal and what you share is that we all have lived experience and that we all need space to be. And of course you can have a wellness recovery action plan, you can have all kinds of peer support models or groups, but that doesn't matter. It is also about how you run. The cafe, how you run the front desk, how you run the management, how you run everything, everything for A to Z is done out of that reciprocal relationship that, that, and so this, yeah.

Fiona:

It's a, a true flat hierarchy. Yes. I feel quite emotional listening to you speak so passionately about peer support, which is just brilliant, but also. I very much feel like this is what I would want where I work. And it's so wonderful to hear your very eloquent description of that level of equality, and especially about how people have things to bring, not things to receive.

Martijn:

And that is something that is very subtle. You can easily distort that So easily. That, that, that relationship and, and, and we are sometimes easily put back, pushed back in that receive, at the receiving end. And that makes you smaller, that makes you dependent. And I think the, the thing that is very deep in that what happens in that peer relationship is that people start to over. Come that own that distancing they do themselves to survive. So it is not that it is a mutual relationship in a mutual way in which you overcome the distance. So it is not only society or others that try to connect, but it's also the abilities for yourself to connect as well. By finding the courage to overcome and you need some, the peer relationship can be really a hopeful relationship that, that you also start to deconstruct an own survival mode of isolation that is really has a purpose. So you don't have to, you can't ignore the purpose, but that space makes it possible that you. Maybe break down that because you think, okay, maybe there's hope. Maybe there's more. Maybe there are people who really understand where I am and what is the function of that isolation. What is the, what, what is the purpose behind it? And that they say, okay, listen, Martijn, I know where you are and that I can think, okay, and I think they know where I am because they have been there. And then they say, oh, I have the confidence that, that there's more, and I have to try day by day to keep the connection going as, as this person, as a, as a ex user or user myself. So it is not easy, but I have the confidence that for you there is also more. And when you are ready, I am there. But I know myself that I have to choose, you have to choose your own moment and you are not obliged to choose that moment but I know that I, I will be there.

Fiona:

Yeah. And that's so important, that consistency,

Martijn:

that

Fiona:

continuity and allowing that agency to happen.

Martijn:

And it can take time. So much time and, and it can also mean that people reject and retreat and that you have confidence and that you reach out, but not by, Oh, now you have to take my hand. No, be there. I'm curious about your story. I'm really curious about what you have to say. What is your story? What does, What do you want to share with me? What can I learn from you? I'm not here to help you or to learn you something. You are there to learn me about your story, about your meaning, about your And I listen, and I reflect on it maybe a bit about my story, but But it's not about my story. It's about the invitation that people will start to share their stories, start to share, to learn others. By sharing their story.

Fiona:

It's an invitation.

Martijn:

Yeah.

Fiona:

Thank you.

Martijn:

You're welcome.

Narrator:

Thank you for listening we really hope that we'll have the pleasure of having you as one of our listeners again. And that's it for this episode of Open Pod Pod. Join us for the next episode.