3.1 IMDRAP special- Mimi and Leon

Welcome back! Welcome to Season three of Open POD pod! We've come a long way and we are still incredibly thankful for Billy Hardy whom we miss very much. This short episode is one of a few short "Vox popularis" interviews that Fiona did at the IMDRAP conference - a conference in August 2024 all about Open Dialogue. This one is the inimitable Mimi and the lovely Leon. Bearing in mind the background noise was not possible to remove....Enjoy!

POD at Central and North West London NHS Foundation Trust

Fiona Eastmond | LinkedIn

Transcript

Narrator 0:09

Welcome to season three of open POD pod. My name's Fiona and I'm an open dialogue practitioner, just beginning to develop some hours of practice. I'd like to take a moment as always. To think of Billy Hardy. A great mentor. And someone whom I miss very much. I'd also like to take a moment. Of course. To thank Amanda Bueno. For the brilliant idea of doing this podcast. And Gareth Jarvis. For enabling it to happen. We'd really love it. If the things that we talk about in this podcast, Could sit alongside any learning that anyone's doing about open dialogue. I'd like to dedicate this first episode of season three. To Amanda. Welcome back. To open pod pod.

Fiona 0:48

So we're here at SOAS, at the IMDRAP conference, and I'm just grabbing random people to see what it is that they're thinking. Would you like to introduce yourself?

Leon Carlos 0:58

my name is Leon Carlos, originally from Columbia. I'm living from 45 years, making my life at Geneva, Switzerland. And as a psychologist, I became more and more always very interested in how to do well with people that is suffering or having some kind of difficulties. Then, step by step, I was, by myself, maybe something that is linked also. with, my roots in Colombia, very concerned for people in humanism, like in approach that is not, nothing that I have the power and you are, downside or, I have the knowledge and I will instruct you. But always in this kind of horizontal, people say horizontal, I don't know if it's a good word, but in this kind of not, basing our connection in difference, more in the fact that we are human beings. And you are a human being, and me also, then what can we share? what is the life? What is your life? What is my life? Then step by step, I was, conducted to be more and more. I'm very interested in discovering open dialogue. That is actually the most representative approach or way to do with people suffering in a way that is very humanistic. In a way that lets a lot of space for the voice of the persons to express, to be heard. And that is something that doesn't happen only with the person, but with the social network, you know. We are not isolated people. We are always, we have someone that is near of us that is worrying for us. For us, or that is, loving, loving, us, or thing like that. Then, this, this, we are not alone in this world. We are always with, I don't know. Is my dog? I don't know. It's, yeah. But, someone or something, the, the, the little bird, I don't know, we are connected with something that is alive always. I read something yesterday about. Everyone has, is our true. Then you have your true, I have my true, and there is the true. Then this multiplicity of point of view or perspective, because we always, if we think about us completely in closed looping, we don't arrive at any answer. Okay. Because we are in a loop. Then is when I hear something about the other. Or the other tell me something about me, I discover more and more different aspects of me, Then, okay, in short, that is why I am here, in this conference. Because with the time, I have been therapist, but now I am trainer, in this approach. And, also there are other reasons. To be here. Not my doctor are living here now. Then it's also an opportunity to see her that is very, Latin tip, but the mother is English. Then she was asked maybe what mean b or have blood had English word load And this experience something with, with this, from. One year ago she's here, yeah. Okay, this is a short introduction. Colombian people talk a lot. Yes, we do. Yes, we

Mimi 4:49

do.

Fiona 4:49

know that. Talking a lot is allowed. Especially on the open

Mimi 4:56

my name is Mimi and I'm here at the conference as someone who started the training but wasn't able to finish for health reasons. but primarily because I genuinely feel that open dialogue, is something that isn't just a therapeutic approach. It's also contextualizing. Picking up from what Carlos said about truth. for me, it's about the differences. The understanding of different realities that different people experience. and the process of open dialogue has such amount of room in which people as individuals can make connections. Because I think mental health is very, it can be a very isolating, experience. and understanding the meaning of the individual's reality in life and how they perceive that. How, you know, moving forward, what does that look like? So for me, I think open dialogue has so much potential for being able to look at individuals historic background, that it, you know, intergenerational trauma. understanding like what Carlo said before, which is everyone's human. We're all on, on the same kind of journey, but we're all just on different paths, but all of those paths are valid within open dialogue. They can be explored and sometimes it takes, being in that very uncomfortable place where you might be challenged. But actually. It's a bit like a baptism of fire. You just have to leap in faith that you're not going to burn and that at the end of it, you're going to be a much better survivor, of whatever condition it is that you are suffering or living with or surviving. whether that is, areas of domestic violence say, or whether it's about, um, social trauma. in a country torn in conflict. So that's another thing that I'm really passionate about. this kind of approach being implemented, in places where there isn't a system for healthcare, where people might not be able to afford it, but that as a community, within communities, people can support each other and become more resilient. So, you know, just all of those things, it ticks my boxes. Amazing.

Fiona 7:40

Do you think that, is related to your personal values?

Mimi 7:42

think in part, it relates to my sort of values and beliefs system, but I also feel that. And I also feel that for me, I've been trying to have open dialogue without knowing that it existed for a long, long time whilst being under the mental health care in the UK. But no one ever listened to me. I've always wanted to be able to sit and be able to voice what I think were the roots of my issues. And allow and give room for other people who are still in my life, who, may benefit from hearing my truth, but also, so that they can voice their truth so that I might be able to understand. How they, so that I might be able to decipher their actions, their attitudes, and connect. And connect ultimately, because within Colombian, families who maybe have come to Europe or anywhere else, for instance, as refugees, the violence and the experiences don't get talked about. We don't discuss those things. but nonetheless, as a different generation, we still pick up on all of those fears and behaviors of coping mechanisms that our parents and our community kind of, implement in order to overcome feelings, fears, and trauma. Carlos and I were discussing it the other day where like, how do Colombian people deal with trauma? They get another job. They get another job. That's how they deal with trauma. because you can't stand still for too long because you then might have to be with yourself. And so let's get really busy all the time.

Leon Carlos 9:40

It's a cultural, of course, of course it is. Because it's also, to be more always like in the present, and, having the hope that, life is bringing always something different, and to be in this kind of dynamics, you know. Yeah. And, it's very different, for example, from some European people. I mean, if I think in. Countries where introspection and questioning itself is very important. And people pass and lost a lot of time in this introspection. Who am I? And thinking in the past and looking for I don't know where it happens in the start or etc, etc. And everyday they are discovering that. Okay, that was this that happened in the past, and at the end, they are as more living in the past than in today, in the opportunities that are opening, because their life is rich, and it brings always something unexpected, and it is necessary to be sufficiently open to take it.

Mimi 10:57

And the uncertainty of the outcome.

Leon Carlos 10:59

And maybe we are no. Very comfortable. We take something. Yes. As we feel like it's, I have the right to do this, I'm fear, it's my fear, can I take it, or can I accept it, or can I do it, etc. Then it's the right to be alive, and it's the right to be, you know.

Mimi 11:22

able to, I think, also. The other thing that I see within Open Dialogue, is, the opportunity for people to bring in, their different approach. within the context of where they are at. So, you know, what's the historical background of the place? is there a social trauma or is this just on an individual basis? what is it that influenced them? What's been the politics? What's been the economic system? Where do they sit within that structures? Because a lot of it is about decolonizing those structures that We live by and that govern us. and empowering those, those, communities and individuals within those communities to actually be able to say, well, how do I interact with these structures that may not have any meaning for me? why am I living under those social structures? Actually? why am I trying to fit a particular model of social conditioning when, I don't feel like I fit in that hole because I'm square and it's round. The hole is round. I'm square. How am I going to do that? And in order to fit into that round hole, I'm going to have to shave parts of me in order to fit. And the realization of that then means that my truth needs to be validated as individuals and as communities.

Leon Carlos 12:49

I have two things to say, link it with the idea that some people, for the difficulties prefer to have another job, you know? because, it makes me think two examples. One is my father. we don't, we didn't know what happens between seven and 25 years in his life. he was, kicked home because it was very difficult, et cetera. And when all of us were asking, what is happens? Well, how were your life? Et cetera. He was saying, Oh no, it's not important. This thing now he was. And, some people can say, Oh, it's like negation. Maybe there is a traumatization. And maybe he is avoiding suffering. No, it's an attitude toward life. And it happens also a lot in the old psychiatry that is still the present psychiatry. That when someone is trying to say, listen, in my reality, there are some people that are talking to me, but the other people don't see. Or, in my reality, there are people that are persecuting me, etc. Or, in my life, the other people say, come and, venga? Come. Come to the reality. what, what is very aggressive because the reality of this man is like, it's

Mimi 14:16

the reality.

Leon Carlos 14:16

reality. It's their reality. And he say, I don't want this, I'm not sick. I'm trying to do my life, And people is saying with the psychiatrist, he's denied his sickness. And wow. And that,

Mimi 14:30

that makes me, because he's,

Leon Carlos 14:32

he's a fighter. He's living something very difficult and he's trying to survive or to live. With this, and then suddenly it's like in a Kudma They are erasing all these resources and in open dialogue. We say, okay Tell most about this blah blah blah and we listen the story and we are looking for the resources and people are Very happy to be here about this that was You Until there, like a secret, a heavy secret, you know, my life. And suddenly they can realize that they can share this. And this is not a problem. That these people that is saying, okay, okay, and how it's happening, blah, blah, blah. And, and now what? How, how are, how is this, how are you doing with this? Or where we, where we go now. Then more thinking about in the present and in the future.

Fiona 15:36

Yeah, and the now then.

Leon Carlos 15:38

Little about therapy, how it is affecting you the past in your present life. Ah, okay, how it can change, Then discussing more about everyone, his story. and this story is very personal, very singular. And, we need spaces. Validate. To validate.

Mimi 15:58

I think that, I agree with you Carlos, I think that people's stories, as they are told, need to be validated before they can be questioned or even go into. Because it's only when we understand the meaning of those stories for those individuals, That we might be able to support that individual in maybe having, or even entertaining, a slightly different perspective. because actually, when people are speaking, the words have meaning to them. and actually in Tim's film, that, we watched, there is that kind of, we see him there saying, you know, when I had this visit over, I was trying to portray somebody who was actually coping, but now looking back on it, it's all a fake. it's all a facade, a mask that actually is so overwhelming to keep up. I think a lot of people that are labeled as, for instance, high functioning and because that label is given that individual is no longer able to access services, we're done a huge disservice because the coping mechanisms that we have to then adopt might be really unhealthy. I live in crisis every day. The intensity of the crisis, differs day to day. Sometimes it's not that tough, but some, but the majority of the time, I mean, crisis. I'm on panic mode.

Leon Carlos 17:32

It's survival mode.

Mimi 17:34

Yeah.

Leon Carlos 17:34

Dramatize it.

Mimi 17:36

but saying that means that ultimately, it's very unhealthy because at the end of the week I can't even move. I cannot move. And I do exactly the same thing. I fit the stereotype. What do I do when I'm in stress? I get another job. I find something else to get involved in.

Leon Carlos 17:56

I'm very curious about, Fiona, your thoughts about this, your feelings about this little discussion, dialogue we have.

Fiona 18:05

I've really enjoyed listening to you both. And I love the idea of if you're going to feel something, quick, do something to distract yourself. I don't think it's unusual, and I think that the society that we live in kind of praises that. Busyness and side hustle and do this, have to do two things, three things. I'm doing it myself. And it's really interesting to hear,

18:39

echoing

Fiona 18:40

between you, stories of truth, and coping, and surviving, survival and truth, just really coming out in the dialogue. It's lovely, thank you.

Leon Carlos 18:54

Thank you.

Mimi 18:55

Thank you for thinking of us.

Fiona 18:56

ha ha

Mimi 18:57

ha ha

Leon Carlos 18:57

ha

Mimi 18:57

ha ha ha ha ha.

Narrator 19:00

Thank you for listening we really hope that we'll have the pleasure of having you as one of our listeners again. And that's it for this episode of Open Pod Pod. Join us for the next episode.